Transcript
Andrea (01:08.403) Today we're going to talk about what it's like to be autistic at work. And the intention is really around ensuring that neurodiversity in the workplace, like it's more approachable. Like it doesn't have to be so intimidating. And today's guest experienced a pivotal moment when he disclosed his autism to his manager at one of his first jobs. The reaction had a huge impact and is an important leadership lesson for all of us. Shea Belsky is a neurodiversity advocate and the chief technology officer for MENTRA, which is on a mission to tap into the neuro exceptional potential of 1 billion humans worldwide. You will hear Shay's passion and heart for this work as he shares his story. So listen in as we talk about the power of getting curious when we aren't sure what to do or say, and the detrimental impact of stereotyping and making assumptions. Shay, welcome to the show.
Shea Belsky (02:54.774) My story starts a long, long, time ago. I was diagnosed with autism at a young age, which I recognize is honestly one of the more rare circumstances. Most of the people who I know who are neurodivergent are either self diagnosed or late diagnosed. And I'm fortunate and I recognize the privilege that comes with having an early diagnosis and having the support that I had, having an IEP, having parents who really supported me and got me whatever I needed for my accessibility and just helping me with that support. I really felt that love and support through my time at school. I went to Cornell University. I felt that love and support there as well. And then I graduated from Cornell and I started working at Wayfair. Wayfair was my first ever real job in the workplace. And here I am as an autistic individual, kind of really not knowing what I'm doing, but knowing that I'll figure it out. And maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but I'm going to give it a real honest focused try. And it was at Wayfair, it one of my managers at Wayfair who I said, hey, Mr. and Mrs. I wanna talk about me for a second as part of getting to know each other. I am autistic. And this was an individual at the time who was like, okay, I don't know really anything about autism, which is rare I found in my opinion. I found that generally most of the folks who I talk with either know somebody who is autistic or have heard about it or had kind of an awareness of it, this person, for better or for worse, did not know anything about autism. And they're like, I don't really know anything about it, but I do know that it's very important. I understand that I, as the manager, have to take this seriously and treat this with the respect that it deserves. And I'll be honest as the manager and say, I don't know anything about this. So I'm gonna go ask my HR resources for help and support to figure out what I need to do. And if you, as in me, if Shea, you can help me figure out how to look into your brain to figure out what do you need, what's getting in the way, and what can I do to help you get that stuff out of your way, that can really help our conversation. And that really blew my mind in that moment, being able to understand, okay, what do I actually need? What's coming up for me? What's becoming difficult, what is easy, and what do I need, what support do I need to get to the best possible version of myself? And that's when it comes to equity. It's what does an individual need to put them on a level playing field with everybody else? Not creating an advantage, but ensuring that they feel like they have all the tools that they need, which look different from other people, to be successful.
Andrea (05:40.245) Well, and I suspect that that manager treated everyone that way with respect and he was, I mean, it takes a lot of courage to be as curious as he was and to acknowledge like, I don't know anything about this. Did you see that? Did you see those behaviors and how he interacted with everyone?
Shea Belsky (06:00.766) Once I had had that interaction with them, it was obvious to me, like you said, that they were very intentional, is where it comes to my mind. They were very patient. They avoided jumping to conclusions. This was a manager who, which this wasn't their first rodeo. They had been a people manager for a while and who knows what else they had seen up to that point, which had led to that being their mindset. But in this case, that's really what I needed to understand, to have them understand what I was talking about. And for me to understand what they needed. Because up until that point in time, I was just kind of like saying, I'm autistic, and that's it. But that can mean so many different things to different people. And until that point in time, I'd have kind of been letting the other people in that conversation make up their mind about what it means to be autistic. Maybe I was behaving like or unlike their family members, someone they'd seen on TV, in a book, in a movie, whatever it is. And so unless I control the definition, their mind would just go to whatever their definition and understanding of autism was. And because of the conversation I had with this manager, I was able to really think about, what does autism mean to me specifically? Because if I don't control the dialogue, the words, and the definition, then I leave it to the other people to extrapolate, to try to interpret what I'm saying. And that only goes as far as I am clear and concise about the topic. And I have a habit sometimes of just kind of firehosing words and information without really being concise and clear. And so over the last couple of years, I've really focused on my own method of communication. How can I convince people of my ideas or how can I compel them? How can I make sure people understand what I'm saying, which has been super hard for me as an autistic individual, but it's absolutely paid off to get me where I am today as being a CTO of a startup being a strong communicator and convincing people of ideas to inspire them and motivate them. Because that takes, in my opinion, being a very strong communicator. And I've had to work very hard to get to this point. I'm always doing work to improve that. It's never done. It's always an ongoing conversation.
Andrea (08:16.189) Yeah, we're never going to check the box there, are we? Always getting better.
Shea Belsky (08:20.562) I don't think it's really a box to check. I I see the self -development, this individual growth is always being ongoing. If I ever feel like that stops, then you're kind of doing something wrong in my opinion. The idea of professional growth should generally never stop. There'll be certain points in your life when it's more important than others, but the car should never stop moving in that regard. There should always be something that you're at thinking about having the back of your mind and are at least writing down so you can remember it and keep it somewhere in your brain as you're giving a presentation or negotiating or trying to convince someone of something.
Andrea (09:03.859) Yeah, well, and we're always evolving into better versions of ourselves. I think of it as peeling back the layers of an onion. There's always more to uncover. Well, there's always more to see. Okay, so this, you when I asked you about a pivotal moment in your career that taught you a lot about yourself and your leadership, this story jumped out at you immediately. And what's interesting to me, there are so many things that this leader did really well in this scenario. And so I want you to break those down. But I also hear how helpful it was for you that he led so well. I mean, you said because of the conversation, I learned how to. So it's a reminder for all leaders that when we're leading well, the impact on people is tremendous.
Shea Belsky (09:54.11) It's huge. What I felt in that moment, like you said before, this is definitely something that they are very intentional and thoughtful about with all the other reports, not specifically me. It was like the way, the flavor that this came across to me happened to take one specific shape because of autism, but by no means did they not do that for other people with a different set of needs of something else that's going on that I could have no knowledge of. It was a matter of them trying to open up my brain and understand how can I, Shea's people manager, advocate for him, go to bat for him, and make sure that he has the tools to do the job that I hired him to do. This people manager was really intentional in making sure that each of the director ports had the support, the growth, the feedback, and the system within which they could all operate and perform at their highest level the jobs that they are there to do. making sure that when intentional and when necessary, that they were really thoughtful about asking for what they needed. And also when those impediments come up, maybe you don't think of something that it hits you and you're like, this is actually something I just encountered, which is getting in my way. Great. Let's try to unpack it and see what we can do about it. And I felt like that was a very helpful framework, which fundamentally altered how I think about mentorship and management of myself.
Andrea (11:21.507) Yeah. Well, and it was a conversation. mean, he was open with you like, hey, I don't know how to address this. So help me. So no doubt that built a lot of trust in your relationship. And you also said he didn't make assumptions. I suspect that you've worked with people that have made assumptions or jumped to conclusions. And what's the impact of that? Why is that detrimental? in the workplace.
Shea Belsky (11:51.286) Assumptions make it really difficult, I think, especially in the case of neurodiversity and autism, to get at the heart of what someone is about, what their needs are, and meaningfully support them. If you characterize or categorize three or four autistic people as all behaving the same way and having the same set of needs, you're going to misrepair and really misfire on supporting all of them because there's a lot more nuance to it. For example, at Wayfair, like they had, it was an open office environment. There were bright ceiling lights on the ceiling. And obviously it's like brightish. It was annoying for me, but not necessarily something I had to do something about. Whereas I know at least several other people where they actually ask the facilities to like put like a screen darkening film over their life because it really bothered them. Now, if you were going to look at all the autistic people and say, either all people need that covered or all of them don't, that's not exactly accurate. And I didn't necessarily mind it, but I wouldn't have minded if it was covered either. Like it didn't matter to me and I wasn't gonna get in the way of somebody else needing a support adjustment or an accommodation, in this case, putting some darkening over the lights so that they could do their work better.
Andrea (13:07.945)It's a great example, very tactical example. Yeah, so just take the time to ask the question, is this helpful for you? Is this detrimental for you?
Shea Belsky (13:18.106)Asking the question and having a conversation also requires psychological safety. Something that was coming up in my mind talking about my manager at the time was they had promoted and created a psychological safety for me to talk about it. And that conversation had been building up for about a month or so, so it was definitely something that I put on talking with them about. But the trust, the safety needed to be there first before I could talk about it with them. I needed to make sure that I felt that they could handle this information responsibly and maturely and do what they had to do with it to advocate for me. And I saw that in their actions getting up to that point in time. So it wasn't just a fluke. It was definitely a very focused thing.
Andrea (14:01.919)That's a, that's well, no, it's just such a great way to think about it. I love that language. Could they handle it? And you, cause you didn't on day one go into his office and say, Hey, I'm autistic. You waited like a month and you gauged the environment and the level of safety. Can he handle that information?
Shea Belsky (14:20.992)Part of that was making sure that I also had the language in my mind about what I wanted to say, and also making sure I wasn't overwhelming them, like on day one of them being my manager. I wanted to give them, I wanted us to a relationship first and then talk about it rather than just kind of like dumping it on them or making it seem like a burden. I did not, what was really important for me, and this is also what I was thinking about at the time, is I didn't want the discussion to a burden for them. It was part of their job to advocate for me, but I did not want to make it all about me. I didn't want to disproportionately divert attention away from other things they were doing, but I did want to bring it up as something to discuss as part of them doing their job for me. And I felt like they were able to handle that very well.
Andrea (15:12.357)Yes, and leaders should all be able to handle whatever information. that is the spirit of this show is that our workplaces are full of human beings walking around with all kinds of human experiences. And what if we were more open and transparent about those things? I mean, the armor would come off, the vulnerability, the connection. And so what impact would that have? Our productivity, our efficiency because we wouldn't be carrying around all this stuff. We'd be free to have honest conversations. It's, yeah, it's something that's so important. I love how you're normalizing this conversation and making it more approachable. Like it doesn't have to be such a big deal or so intimidating to talk about who you are.
Shea Belsky (16:01.582)What was really important for that conversation, I keep coming back to it, but it was a matter of being able to kind of organize the words, organize the language that I had about where I'm really good and what support I need to get there. That was, think, what they really wanted to hear, and I talked about this with someone the other day. Accommodations, workplace adjustments, and things that autistic people need and neurodivergent people need are one way to enable them to do the work that they really need to do. Because neurodivergent people, autistic people, they have a set of support needs. There are things in our environment which are not going to work. There are things about their day -to -day work, about their interactions with people that are turnoffs or make it hard for them to do their job. Or there are things which stop them from being good at what they're good at. If those impediments, if those accommodations are acknowledged and then addressed and taken to next level, then they're capable of doing the best possible work. The conversation becomes like looking at somebody only from a disability -based lens, a deficit -based lens, while also not being like super toxic positivity about it. Cause people are like, neurodiverts have superpowers, we're all amazing. And in reality, there's a lot of nuance to that. I was just asking someone like, is neurodiversity disability? And I'm like, it depends. It can be yes and no at the same is just a matter of what accommodation does somebody need to get to that superpower, to get to the places where they're feeling really good and confident and awesome and authentic.
Andrea (17:37.381) Okay, so you have taught me a lot about neurodiversity in the workplace. And one of the things that you shared previously in a conversation was thinking about neurodiversity as a color wheel instead of a spectrum. So talk a little bit about that.
Shea Belsky (17:55.324)Yes. Yes, so me being autistic, I've heard the term autism spectrum or on the spectrum. I hate the term on the spectrum. I find it pretty much an insult, to be honest. I find it very derogatory, but also it very much is a reduction of agency. The reason I say that is because if you have a spectrum that implies very linear, very easy to understand places where somebody falls on the spectrum, now, if you think about somebody with autism, maybe they're good at communication, maybe they're not. It depends on the person. But if you want to say someone is on one end of the spectrum or not, that is kind of subjective because someone can see being autistic as having a lot of sensory issues, which I definitely do. Bring me to a supermarket, bring me to a very loud bar, and I definitely have to manage a lot more and I use a lot of energy to do that. And maybe to somebody, that definition of being on the spectrum means, can't go to Trader Joe's with this person. I'm sorry for Trader Joe's people out there. Maybe to somebody else, it's communication. And I am a good communicator. And perhaps in this situation, I'm not on the spectrum of somebody else. It's very, in this spectrum -based model, is inherently subjective, because it depends on whatever one person sees as being the most obvious traits about an autistic person. whereas a color wheel kind of covers all of those things with different spokes, different ends for communication, executive functioning, social skills, sensory stuff, and there's other things on there. But the point is that on a color wheel, I can be really good at communication. I could be good at socializing, but I can still struggle in a sensory environment. I can struggle with articulating what's going on and I can be good at getting functioning. The point of a color wheel is to more authentically and objectively describe the strengths that somebody has and what their needs are, what they struggle with. Going back to disability, deficit -based lens and superpowers, a color wheel is a great representation of that or one is a representation of other
Andrea (20:13.829) Yeah, that multiple things can be true at the same time. Yeah.
Shea Belsky (20:19.606)Absolutely. And I know so many people who are autistic and they're a divergent who are really, really awesome and excel in so many areas I'll never be good at. And then the opposite is true where I'm good at something that they're not good at. And I would say that those pendulums can swing very far. I know multiple folks who are nonverbal who cannot communicate the way that we are right now, but they're far more brilliant and insightful and observant and calculating than I will ever be. So who's to say which one of us is forever along on a spectrum or not.
Andrea (20:53.013)You got it. gosh, I love that. And they're just different strengths there. And so it's figuring out what the strengths of this individual is and how do I tap into those? Yeah. So it is very individual. mean, back to the whole equality, your whole point about equality is really figuring out what are the needs of this person? How do I help him or her shine in this environment? I that's the leadership focus.
Shea Belsky (21:15.646)There's a documentary that I watched with my wife a couple of months ago, which really, I think, describes this very well. The documentary is called, This Isn't About Me, that's the name of the documentary. And it describes an autistic woman, I think like in her 20s or so, who is nonverbal. she needed a lot of support going through school. She had a lot of communication and sensory challenges. But when they found their voice using a tablet, an ability to communicate with people. They were able, when she, not just a tablet, but once they were in an environment, people were listening to her and trying to understand what was going on and actually ask her to be able to communicate and listen to what she was communicating. Then so many of her news are met and exceeded in order to be able to unlock her sense of comfort, her authenticity, and to be able to be successful. And now she got her master's degree. I think she went to Boston University, Boston College is one of the two. And she's now a product manager at a startup. And I'm like, wow, this is amazing. This is what someone's capable of if they have the support that they need and can then go on and accomplish awesome things. And I definitely recommend watching documentary. It's like an hour long. It's called, This Isn't About Me. And I love it very much.
Andrea (22:40.225) That's amazing. Well, and again, what an important leadership lesson. Our assumptions about someone get in the way of finding their potential and unleashing that. I mean, the gifts that she's able to bring to the world when someone sees her and recognizes those gifts.
Shea Belsky (22:57.128) Like I said before, which one of us is more on the spectrum than the other? I don't think it's a fair comment to make at all. And that is not meant to reduce the importance of the needs that both of us have. Does one of us have more support needs? Perhaps, but that should not make either one of us any less of a person. It's a matter of what do we need to be at our best.
Andrea (23:24.133)What do you need to be at your best? Yep, that's the leadership question. We want all leaders asking, what do you need to be at your best? Okay, so tell us more. You are on this mission to make this conversation less intimidating and you're doing such a good job, by the way. What else is important for leaders and organizations to understand when it comes to the neurodiverse talent?
Shea Belsky (23:52.594)I mean, let's say you do know somebody who is autistic in your life. Let's say you do have a direct report or a peer or someone who confides in you and says, hey, Mr. or Mrs. Manager or mentor, whoever you are, I have ADHD. I have dyslexia. I have whatever it is. And maybe you know somebody who's ADHD or maybe you don't. And every fiber of your being wants to assume that this person behaves exactly the same way as that person you know. I'm going to say, check your stereotype or check your experience at the door first and come in to just have a conversation about it. And that is what helps create a psychological safety to not automatically assume that someone's behavior is going to match up exactly with your lived experience or your experience from watching a movie or reading a book. When it comes to actually understanding what somebody is, it's still okay to keep those experiences in your mind to reflect on them, but try not to like pull those stereotypes, pull too many things in, except to just understand that some needs might be the same, some needs might not be the same. You might see that somebody who has dyslexia, maybe they do get voice memos. Maybe somebody who has dyslexia doesn't like voice memos. Every person is different. It's okay to remember that maybe on average people with dyslexia might like using voice memos, but it's not necessarily a guarantee. It's not a bulletproof 100 % at a time answer. But it's fine to reflect that on average. In this example, people with dyslexia might like using voice memos, but it's not a sure fire answer. You just have to ask them what would help you in this moment.
Andrea (25:33.895)So asking questions.
Shea Belsky (25:36.762) And part of the asking questions is because some people who are neurodivergent, like what happened with me, some people who are neurodivergent, they may never have articulated their needs before. They may never have said in a clear, concise way, this is what's coming up for me. These are what my needs are. And you may find yourself working with a neurodivergent person who's never been in any environment where they've had somebody who wants to have a meaningful conversation about it. Maybe they didn't have parents who were supportive. Maybe they were ashamed of their diversity and had to hide it. Maybe their friends didn't care. This might be the very first time that somebody's ever had a meaningful dialogue on the subject. And I've worked with people and interacted with people for whom that is very true. It's true enough off a number of times where I say it, which is depressing for me to think about the people who are neurodivergent don't always have that support, but then they get to have that conversation and it's like a lights on unlocking kind of moment like, wow, this is what it means when somebody cares about me and wants to advocate for me.
Andrea (26:39.765)Yes. And that I get to reflect on that. Because I think a lot of people, I I spent so much time early in my career just trying to fit into the environment. I wasn't focused on my needs. So if someone would have asked me that, nobody did. But if someone would have asked me, hey, Andrea, what do you need to be at your best? Like, I don't know. So I think it's a great reflection question for all of us.
Shea Belsky (27:05.766)It is. I almost think that me knowing that I'm autistic makes it a bit easier for me to understand their effect on myself, what my needs are. That doesn't mean that for people who are neurotypical, those things aren't easy. I think thinking about it in the lens of autism and knowing what I know about it helps me with a little bit of a framework. Also being able to rely on other people who I know who have gone through similar things and had similar struggles and can kind of help find the words easily and then I can help them find words for them for their needs as well. It certainly helps, but I think that the concept of what you need to be at your best applies to everybody.
Andrea (27:44.273)When we talked previously, at one point, you said something like you're always paying attention to what's going on in your brain. And that so resonated with me, Shea. I mean, I think for all of us, like, isn't isn't that just paying attention? Because it's also, I've rationalized away so much of what's going on in my brain and it's like a part of me. There's a level of acceptance, there's a level of grace that comes with, yeah, this is just how my brain works. That's okay.
Shea Belsky (28:20.684)I always feel like I'm kind of gauging how I feel and also being honest with myself. I think the psychological safety has to come from a point where somebody is neurodivergent or autistic, they need to be in a spot mentally, emotionally, where they can say to themselves, isn't working, or this is really grinding my gears, or this works really well, and I like this sort of thing. It requires that level of reflection of self -advocacy to be able to say, at least internally, that isn't working. And being able to articulate that even in your mind, even if you don't know how to say it or can't say it, is that light bulb moment where it's like, okay, this setup, this environment is or isn't working. For example, this isn't a workplace thing, but I still think it's relevant. My wife and I, sometimes we go out and we go to bars or louder spaces. and depending on the environment, sometimes I can do it, sometimes I can't. I love live music, I'm big on it. I love concerts and stuff like that. But like a cramped bar, which is all indoors, that sound hits me a lot harder and it makes it harder to focus. What we both discovered was that if I have my back against a wall, then the sound is a lot less intense for me. For whatever reason, whoever my brain is hearing that sound, the sound is like bouncing off the wall behind me or whatever it is, it's a lot less intense. So we're like, great, now we just gotta find places where we can sit at the back or on the side so I can go out and do these things with my wife, which I love to do, while making sure that this specific need is met. And if that need is met, then they can go out and we can have fun. And that applies to the workplace as well. It took us experimenting and acknowledging that this was going to work and what outcome it led to. And that applies to neurodiversity in the workplace as well.
Andrea (30:24.091)It's such a great metaphor for the workplace because what I hear in that is you're taking care of yourself. You are acknowledging and recognizing your needs and then you're finding the environments that best support that. I mean, that's a no doubt. mean, isn't that what we're all looking for is an environment that's going to best support who we are and what we need and what we want. But we have to be willing to talk about that.
Shea Belsky (30:50.116)Well in this case, even before psychological safety, it requires somebody, again, being able to put the words or arrange the thoughts in a way where they can point to something and say, this doesn't work or this does work. And sometimes that conversation can take a while to reconcile that or could take a while to identify. Like that moment in that bar didn't happen instantly, it definitely took a while to get to that point where we're like, okay, this works. And it's been the same way with me in the workplace and jobs. I know of things in the workplace which do and don't work for me. For instance, I'm a big standing desk person because I kind of like to tap my foot a little bit. And if I don't tap my foot, then I tap my desk and that annoys people a lot more. So that is less an adjustment for me than for other people. But I try to always get standing desks because I know that if I tap my desk, it bothers the heck of other people. And I try to be as conscious of the other members as possible. My mileage varies, to be honest, but I always try to get standing desks when possible. That's just an example.
Andrea (31:54.931)Yeah, it's a great example because that's what works for you.
Shea Belsky (31:57.362)Yeah, it works for me, it works for other people as well. Something that also comes up in the type of accommodations or adjustments is like trying not to warp reality or warp the environment too much around me, creating like a gravity well, because that also comes up for managers. like, well, I could do this thing, but then like the whole team has to be altered, or we have to do so much to support it. That kind of like tilts the orbit a little bit. And that is also challenge a conversation which I've had with people. Like, how can you support people without singling them out or making it so much about them? And for some people, for some people who have specific support needs, that's just going to have to happen. You're going to have to alter gravity a little bit to treat someone with a different way in order to get them the support that they need to do a job. That might mean a private office. That might mean, their desks in a different spot. That might mean working from home. That might mean noise -canceling headphones. Whatever it is, might be a little obvious, which isn't a bad thing. As long as everyone's on the same page, and as long as there's an understanding of why this is happening, that greatly reduces the barrier to entry and reduces the frustration or the strangeness people may feel around the conversation.
Andrea (33:18.251)Yeah, and at least you're working towards a solution. think even I know there have been times I haven't been able to create like the ideal solution, but people appreciate when you're working towards a solution, right? You're trying to figure it out. There's I think there's trust building in that.
Shea Belsky (33:33.49)Yeah, like people appreciate it when you're being intentional and thoughtful about it. And you're never going to get it right on try one or in the first moment or so, it is people appreciate it when at least you're trying when you're being conscious of it. And I've done that too. Like my direct reports, like I might not get it right the first try, but they recognize the fact that I'm doing something about it and I'm being intentional about it. And it is an experimentation. It's a back and forth often until we arrive at the point where we both acknowledge, yes, this is working. Let's keep this and improve upon it and make it better over time. And also when stuff are done, even when to get to that point, there's always a level of being conscious and aware of it to make sure that it stays that way.
Andrea (34:14.611)Yeah, it's like a dance, isn't it? It's an ongoing dance and it's always paying attention, always checking in. How are we doing? Being willing to have the hard conversations being. And the other thing I hear through your stories is being willing to be awkward, like not expecting us to get it right. That just being willing to say, I don't know. And this is, this is new for me. I mean, there's going to be a level of discomfort that we have to be comfortable with.
Shea Belsky (34:44.786)That was the whole manager that I had from the get -go. They said to me very point blank, I don't know that much about this. And that was not what I had anticipated hearing in that moment. I was so prepared for so many other conversations that we could have had, but that wasn't what I was prepared to hear, which kind of broke my brain a little bit in a good way, because it kind of, in that moment, it created a clean slate, but also it reduced a lot of the anxiety and tension that I had going into it. Without biasing them too much about it, because what I was also worried about was I was gonna tell them all about it, and I would bias them forever. And they were very quick to not let that happen. They wanted to make sure that they could be as unbiased as they could be. And they were very intentional about that.
Andrea (35:28.871)Great leadership. I'm so grateful for that leader, for how he showed up for you. Yeah, because think about the, think about the ever expanding influence of that story. I mean, it had huge impact on you that really set the course for the work that you're doing now. But now also like as you share the story, like we're all learning from it and being better for it. So good job.
Shea Belsky (35:50.52)The work that I'm doing with Mentra, how I do the work as a people manager, but also as a technical leader is in huge credits and in managers that I've had both the ones that I've loved and the ones that I haven't vibe with as much because I learn a lot about, okay, like what about this manager's style am I not a fan of or what are they saying or doing which I don't personally, that I'm not personally fond of. think I always learn something new from each of my managers. And I always take something away from the relationship, multiple things at least. if I have to pull one thing out all my managers, then I consider that a healthy relationship. And if it isn't happening, then I feel like I'm really grinding my gears.
Andrea (36:33.573)Yeah, you've also learned what not to do. Yeah. Well, this has been so, so important, this conversation. I mean, my big takeaway is really your intention. I mean, you're helping to make the conversation around neurodiversity in the workplace much more approachable. It doesn't have to be so intimidating. We can let the guards down. We can, with curiosity, have conversations. And the leadership, the leadership lessons for all leaders that I'm taking away from this or having the courage to admit when you don't know. That just lets the guard down. That disarms the conversation. And then with curiosity, asking questions. You've given us lots of questions, just, and just asking people, what do you need and how can I best support you? I mean, that's the thing about it doesn't have to be so intimidating. That's a question that any leader could ask any team member anywhere in the world, in any situation, in any organization. What do you need and how can I support you? Right? It opens the door. The other thing that I hear so much through your stories is having patience. That this isn't a one and done, that it's an ongoing conversation. There's an ebb and flow. There's a dance involved. Any, any leadership lessons that, that I missed there that you think are really important to highlight?
Shea Belsky (37:53.132)One thing I think is also really important about creating equity, creating inclusion is, I mentioned something before about not altering gravity too much or not making it about an individual, but what can you do across your entire team to make sure that the entire team feels included and respected and heard? What you don't want to do is single out one person and treat them super, super differently as much as you can help it. But what can you do to make sure that an entire team feels included? Because if one person is coming to you with a set of support needs, Other teammates who report to you might have other needs which aren't getting heard. What can you do to foster a culture of transparency, of communication, of honesty, of camaraderie? And I found that this works really well when the manager is intentional and thoughtful about creating inclusion for everyone, whether you're a disabled or not, neurodivergent or a typical, but just very intentional about what can I do as a manager to foster a positive environment for everyone.
Andrea (38:53.937)That's great. Yeah, because you are creating an environment. If you are a leader, you are creating culture based on what you do and say every single day. Yeah, it's a great reminder. Shea, thank you so much for the work that you are doing. I will continue to root for you and lift you up and highlight your message. It's such an important one. And you're also, you are just an incredible human. I love your heart. I've loved getting to know you. I feel like this is going to be a lifetime friendship and I am really grateful to have you in my life.
Shea Belsky (39:25.) - Andrea, thank you so much again for this awesome conversation. I so enjoyed getting to know you, to talk with you over the past couple of months about neurodiversity and everything that's been going on. And I really appreciate being able to have a dialogue with you to create that honesty, to create the transparency and for you to also have your mind being open to being changed for being patient and learning something new. You have the color wheel right behind your head today. So I definitely know I've left an impression on you in some way or another, and I really appreciate this dialogue and conversation for all the things we'll able to talk about today.
Andrea (40:00.597)If our listeners want to connect with you, Shea, what's the best place to do that.
Shea Belsky (40:05.456)I'm on LinkedIn, Shay Belsky on LinkedIn. There's only one of me, so if you search for me, I'm there. If you find another person, let me know.
Andrea (40:12.421)Awesome. Thank you, Shea.
Shea Belsky (40:14.112) Thank you, Andrea.